Vulnerability in content creation

Listening to Rebecca Weber's podcast episode on the vulnerability in not just writing a book but in sharing that she was writing one.

And it made me think of you all: business owners and community leaders that may be uncomfortable with this vulnerability because they may not see themselves as creative.

That's why I had to get her on the podcast to talk about this.

Rebecca's Info:
-podcast: https://writingcoachpodcast.libsyn.com/
-website:https://rebeccalweber.com/

Transcript

Steph: 

Welcome to Podcast to Connect, where we share stories of finding our people via podcasts and supporting mediums. Thanks to StreamYard for sponsoring this show.

I'm Stephanie Fuccio, podcast strategist and editor, currently in Turin, Italy for maybe five more days. I've been making valuable connections with my podcast ecosystem for over six years, and I'm here to show you how impactful this medium is to grow your passion led network. Welcome to season three, where we're focusing on one thing: connections.

Our first guest this season is Rebecca Weber. She is originally from the US, like me, a longtime resident of South Africa, Not Like Me, and she currently lives near a penguin colony in Cape Town, which we might have to ask her about later. Rebecca has covered social justice, the environment, the arts, travel, and more for CNN, USA Today, The New York Times, Dwell, and many other publications.

Personally, I heard of her a few years ago from a freelance writing friend who recommended the Writing Coach podcast, which is hers. And that's where we're pitching our Connections tent today in this podcast. Rebecca, welcome.

Rebecca:

Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Steph:

Thank you. This is going to be one of those things where if I get really quiet, it's because I'm used to listening to you alone with my earbuds and I might forget that you're actually here alive. The interactive quality.

Rebecca:

Yeah, I should just say I actually usually read your newsletter as opposed to hearing you speaking out loud. I have watched some of your, can I say, video podcasts. I feel like I don't even know how to lingo down.

So, yeah, it's a different kind of experience for both of us. But we do actually already have these existing connections, which is why I found this topic so interesting because we do have relationships with the people whose words we're reading or hearing are so different from what we're doing right now in real time. It's so true.

Steph:

It's so true. And I do think that that's an under-talked about, if that's even a word, not as talked about topic within podcasting because it's not directly monetizable, but it's fruitful. It's just fruitful.

Well, let's dive in. How long has the podcast and newsletter been going for? Give us time.

Rebecca:

The podcast has been going since the end of 2018, I think September 2018 launched, and other than about two months that I took a break when I had COVID.

Other than that, it's been weekly, pretty much, and some bonus episodes in there. And the newsletter, I don't actually know. I looked it up in my current email provider, ConvertKit.

It's been going since 2016, but I had MailChimp before that I don't remember, maybe a year or two before that. And there were a bunch of people that I just sort of migrated over all in one day. Interesting.

So the newsletter was first. Why did you start the podcast in addition to the newsletter, the podcast really came out. A writer friend of mine suggested that I do a podcast and initially, as I do with so many things, when I hear a new idea, I say no.

I'm used to myself saying no, but by the evening I was kind of like, that's actually a good idea. And my reason for saying no was because I was writing this newsletter for writers in 2018 when all anybody was talking about was video, video, video. And I was like, I hate watching videos, it's so slow.

The automatic subtitles weren't common and so I just felt like it was slow and I felt like my people, my audience, also can read quickly. They don't need to watch a video. So I really thought I prefer reading a newsletter to watching video.

It was like I was having a brain fart about podcasts not being video, basically. But then when I thought about it that day and she was suggesting doing a podcast, I was like, you know what, I have such a great relationship in my own head with the podcast hosts that I listen to. And if I make this switch, I can actually do longer form on the podcast than I can do in email.

So oftentimes my emails were relatively long, but nobody wants to read a 10,000 word email. I mean, certainly not every week. I certainly don't want to write them either.

So that was sort of the idea was to be able to have a different kind of connection and also I thought, be able to dive deeper into some of the concepts that I wasn't trying to write a book chapter every week in the newsletter. And yeah, it just sort of seemed like a good bridge. Well, that brings up a question then.

Steph:

Did the podcast not take some of the content? Did your content in the newsletter shift when you started to do the podcast? Did the podcast take over? I can't find a positive word for this. What am I trying to say here? Did they start to share different roles when you started to do the podcast? 

Rebecca:

I guess, yeah, I think that initially I actually was really doing an individual newsletter, like a broadcast message and a podcast specific message each week. So I really was just sort of adding and creating more work initially.

And I do sometimes still do that, but usually now, usually my new messages are usually my newsletters that are very closely related to the content on the podcast that week. And in particular, as it turns out, I have so many more people reading the newsletter than I do listening to the podcast. So it's not like they're like, oh, I've already heard this, because they're never going to hear it, they're never going to break through or they're not subscribing.

So for me, it's a very easy way to repurpose. I do do it a little bit differently in written form, but that's usually where the weekly content is coming from. Yeah.

And it's all connected and pointing to each other, it sounds like. Yeah. And actually I just got a tip from watching. I was sort of watching one of your episodes just the other day since you had just been talking about doing a podcast rebrand, and I was like, oh, what is it? Better find out.

And there was a tip that I really like that I haven't been doing. Although I include links to click here to listen or subscribe with these places, what I don't do is in my newsletter, I don't refer back to several previous episodes. I include that in the show notes, but most of my people aren't making it to the show notes. Last night I just said, oh, why don't I try dropping in the three links that are in the show notes into the body of the email and let's see what happens.

Let's see. I can only imagine that more people will click a link than have done so previously. I'm sort of curious to see how that plays out.

Steph: 

As am I. Let me know how it turns out because I've been connecting my stuff more and more and more ever since I heard the term flywheel, like connecting all of your stuff. So it starts to kind of self generate and then your audience starts to promote more than you do.

Like that's the ultimate goal. And I'm like that would be great because promotion, I'd rather spend the time creating than promoting. So that would be amazing.

So, yeah, remembering to do all of that after the purge of creations is really hard to remember. But what you said about the fact that you have more people on the newsletter than the podcast was an interesting thing that you mentioned when we were chatting via email because you also said that although that's true, there are more newsletter subscribers than podcast listeners. More of your clients for your business come from the podcast.

Can you unpack that one a little bit more? 

Rebecca:

Yeah. So I have people fill in a short application when they're interested in working with me and one of the non required questions at the very end is just how do you hear about me? How'd you first hear about me? And most people refer to the podcast. That's what most people say.

I know it's possible that they're actually on the newsletter first and then the podcast is the thing that sort of sticks with them. I'm not sure how accurate people self reporting is, but clearly that's the thing that makes a bigger impact and that's the one that the people who actually wind up working with me overwhelmingly say that. So clearly that idea about forging those deep connections is true.

I mean, it's a lot more of an investment to listen to a whole bunch of podcast episodes or even three good ones that make you say, oh, I'm interested in working with this person. It's a lot more than putting in your email address and just getting signed up for a newsletter. So yeah, that's been the overwhelming shift and I expect that that will continue to be the case because although I do get some referrals and that's the sort of other place that people will say, they'll say either so and so referred me or I've been getting your emails for a while.

Those are much less though, than anything else. When I first started, when I just had the newsletter, referral was the main thing or they actually already knew me. They knew me personally because we were in a writers group or a journalism association or something like that and that has really taken a much smaller role and this is what I love.

Steph:

What is it about voices? Because you mentioned as a listener, the thing that made you realize that having a podcast wouldn't be awful is your relationship in your head with the host that you listen to. Like what is it about voices that as a podcast listener really resonates with you? What is it that I don't know that's it that really resonates? 

Rebecca:

Well, I know that for me and I don't know that this is true for everyone, but I know that for me, I tend to listen to podcasts while I'm out. Like primarily walking the dog is my main space and so I'm in motion and I am a very kinesthetic learner.

So I really think that I absorb a lot more because I'm in motion as opposed to I used to listen to talk radio a lot in the car and I didn't retain things as much and I didn't have as much of a fantasy relationship. Even though I really like talk radio, I feel like because they're in my ear like that the only other people who talk to me on my phone really are my parents and a few close friends and so they get that sort of special space and time. I think that the motion really helps me.

I mean, generally speaking, if I read something I tend to retain it better than listening. But with the podcast, when I'm moving and when I hear them again and again, it does seem so personal. It seems like it's one of my friends who's leaving me a voice note a lot of the time it really does.

And when I meet people in a consult or just with like, hey, let me help you with this one thing you're really struggling with or whatever reason podcasting is stuff to help people with. When I meet them in a video call and they've consumed something, there's a different state of relaxation that we start the conversation with than if it was a completely cold oh, somebody oh, you know something about podcasting, you can help me out kind of. I know your social handle kind of relationship.

Have you had that kind of different starting point with folks who were following the podcast first? Yeah, for sure. I mean sometimes it's a little bit awkward on my side because sometimes they're like oh my gosh, it's really you. And I'm like, what? I'm usually just sitting at my desk talking to myself instead of walking around town holding up my phone talking to myself.

So they often do though indicate that early on and a lot of times on those consults they are just expressing what they've already learned. They're almost like telling me what they've already learned from the pockets or taken away or how they've applied it. And those people almost always are like how do we move forward to the next thing? They're ready, they don't really need a consultation in that more traditional sense that when I started the podcast, I would normally have a short phone call with everyone or a zoom call with pretty much everyone to talk about what it would be like to work together.

And at this point, most people don't need one. They don't want one, they don't need one. But when they do have one, there's a big difference between somebody who's not familiar with my approach and somebody who's like yeah, I've been listening for a few years and the time is right.

Steph:

It's a different entry point like you say, yeah, I love the phrase voice meet. I met them so it was fine. I didn't actually need a whole lot of that intro, that awkwardness that can be there at the beginning.

But I want to know more about the book because you're about to start sending your book around, is that correct? 

Rebecca:

Well, the idea is that I will be sending out the book proposal to agents and then agents will shop it to publishers and I hope to go that traditional book publishing route. That's my plan at this point in time. Got you.

Steph:

How would you describe the vulnerability aspect or the difference between writing a book and putting it out there versus a podcast? 

Rebecca:

I think it's a really good question. The vulnerability that I experienced initially when I really first started was around the fact that my audience are the media, right. And I knew that a lot of my people either produce or create broadcast quality audio and video and so I was really concerned about my ability.

I know that I can't just go to the BBC as is, right? And so I had a lot of concern about that and that was my biggest vulnerability initially . It was just the critique that I felt like I was opening myself up to. I wasn't overly concerned from a vulnerability point of view about the quality of the content. Like the words themselves I felt pretty solid about and I think that look, actually we should probably talk again when it comes time for the book to actually come out, but right now the vulnerability point is actually just even expressing that it's happening to anybody outside of my super immediate circle.

Because there is this whole question of will it work? Won't it work? If it does quote unquote, how well does it work? It's a given that people are going to not like it, are going to reject it. That might be the agents, that might be the editors, that might be the people who are reviewing it, that might be the people that are reading it, the people who are reviewing it on Amazon. Like at every stage there's going to be people who don't like it.

And knowing that, sort of reminding yourself. On the one hand, I am very familiar with rejection, but it's just sort of a different medium and I feel like it's one that I still have a lot of respect for. The notion of writing a book still seems like an important part of the way that we have conversations with people and communicate ideas.

So yeah, there's a lot of vulnerability there and I did mention it on my podcast. I sat on the I just pulled the episode up because I wanted to talk about it. I was like, I really love the fact that you spent an entire episode talking about the vulnerability of just saying that you're about to do this really impressive thing, but really scary thing because it might not go anywhere.

But it might. It will. But it might.

Yeah, I did actually mention a few years ago also that I was doing the same thing. I mean, there was an earlier book proposal that didn't work out. It's not just like a fake humbleness of like, oh, I don't know if this will work, it's like I really want it to, but it's reality.

Yeah, and I also felt like being able to talk about that from an authentic vulnerability point of view. It was pretty real, like , let's talk about this. One of the things I talk about in the podcast is the sort of psychological and emotional side of doing this work.

I'm not normally part of the story that I'm reporting, but there are all these background narratives that we have and so it just seems to me like a good ripe example to talk about vulnerability. I love background stuff. I think that's what I like about process podcasts is we get to see that part that never makes it into the polished bit.

And I love the unpolished bits. Not that your episode was unpolished, but no, they're quite unpolished as I said, they are just sort of me sitting at my desk talking to myself as how it is actually a lot of times. But I think that it's a real interesting thing to look at the process and to be reminded of how much there is that goes into that final 1 minute of audio can be so much that goes into there can be years of background that we never know about for them to be able to deliver that.

Steph:

Oh, what a funny anecdote. So true. And I forgot to ask you, can you reveal what I mean? I know it's probably about writing, but what is the book about? 

Rebecca:

Yeah, I don't really have a sound bite version of it yet. It is about writing. It is about mindset for writers and some of the concepts that are there that I already explore in the Writing Coach podcast will come out. But one of the things that I maybe didn't intend so much for my podcast is it has gotten really incredibly specifically super niche in a lot of the episodes, which I think is great and useful for the people that it relates to.

But I just also feel like a lot of the broader concepts apply and could be useful for more people and so the book is intended more for people who write. 

Steph: 

Yeah, and I actually pull a bunch of your episodes over into my podcast editing newsletter for the business side, for the freelancing side, for how do you deal with the pricing or the mindset or those kinds of things? And I go, look, just replace the word writer with editor and it's just a podcast editor and it just totally maps over all the time I'm pulling those episodes over. So it's niche, but it also applies to other situations that are similar.

Rebecca:

Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I do hear that occasionally from people.

There's an actor who said something similar, this all applies. There's part of the creative process that tracks and then the specific examples that I use are usually journalism and freelance specific and so exactly that little niche audience feels like it's just for them. But the book will not be quite as specific as quiet as dialed into that frequency.

Steph:

Well, if folks want to find you online before the book comes out, what's the best place for them to do that?

Rebecca:

I think the best place is the Writing Coach podcast. I'm not super active on social media. I am over on Instagram because I am sometimes smart enough.

Steph:

I'm moving to Pinterest and the newsletter. I'm putting more time into things that have a longer tail than shorter stuff, but it's taking a while to leap over anyway. But yeah, I look forward to not checking stuff on a daily basis at some point in the future.

Rebecca:

But thank you so much for coming on here. Oh, thanks so much for having me. It was really a pleasure to connect in real time with y